Friday, January 9, 2009

God does not give you power to overcome sin!

God does not give you power to overcome sin!

As strange as that statement may sound to some, I believe it to be the teaching of the Bible. Now, before I go any further, I don’t believe that it would be right for me to leave you in suspense. I do believe that God has provided salvation from sin, not salvation in sin. So what do I mean by saying that God does not give you power to overcome sin?! I simply mean this, God does not empower sinful flesh to walk holy, rather he puts sinful flesh to death!! There is a vast difference between God giving you power, and Him putting you to death. The Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, and all other religions cry out to their gods for strength and power to be better people. Often their strong dedication to their god will help them to overcome in a certain area, but it is mere strength of will and dedication. Victory over sin in the life of a Christian is not based upon zeal, earnestness, surrender, or seeking God for the victory. It is based solely upon what Christ has already done for us two thousand years ago. Freedom from sin is gospel! It is not a formula to success. Only Christians can enjoy complete freedom from sin.
Paul says several times in Romans 6, Know ye not...?. He told the Christians in Rome that they ought to know certain truths about the gospel, and by believing or knowing this form of doctrine that was once delivered unto them, they were thereby freed from sin.
Sometimes I hear Christians talk about how they ‘got victory’ and it sounds very similar to any other religion. Their victory is established upon self abasement, strong determination, and trying to look to God for help and grace. Well I have news for you, according to Romans 6, Collosians 3, and many other portions of scripture, ALL Christians are already freed from sin! This freedom was given to them at the moment that they believed in Jesus for salvation. The idea of someone ‘praying through’ to finally get the victory, puts the responsibility of overcoming on the believer. If this were the case then Christ’s ‘attempt’ at freeing us from the power of sin was vain! Can’t you see that Jesus died! Do you think that He would die just to give you a program to closely follow in order to be free?! NO! Jesus died so that you would be free from the power of sin! The reason He came to his earth was to set his people free from the bondage of sin.

Ok then, what has Jesus done? How can I be free from sin?

When Jesus died he took every single believer along with Him to the cross, taking care of our sin problem. God’s solution to our sin problem was to put us to death with Christ, we were then buried together with Him, we were raised at the same time that He was raised, and when He ascended to the Father we ascended to the Father with Him! That is how we became free from the power of sin. Victory over sin is something that God did outside of your experience, it is something that He did to you in Jesus.
This is the reality, this is what God has done for us! The battle for a Christian is a battle of believing God, and walking in light of Gods reality and not our own. In other words, the just shall live by faith. You need to believe what God says, rather than what you see, hear, feel, taste or smell. You ARE free from sin! Jesus broke the chain of sin and set you free! From now on when sin is real and Gods word seems distant, you need to believe, reckon, count Gods word to be true over your own experience and you will see deliverance!
Most so called Christian Churches teach that you cannot stop sinning. There are other Churches that teach that after years of being faithful to God you will graduate to being an ‘elite’ Christian and from that point you will never sin again. Clearly both of these views are unscriptural. The Bible says that ALL Christians are freed from sin! And that is because they were ALL put to death on the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sometimes believers will experience a new found freedom and they will say that they became free from sin after so and so many years of trying. This again is a false concept. You do not become free from sin on the day that you see it in your experience, you became free from sin when Jesus died and rose again!
‘But’, some might object at this point, ‘there are still a good many Christians that are struggling and often failing to overcome sin’. Good observation. You need to stop seeing experience as the test of whether or not something is true! Don’t bring the Word of God down to your experience, rise up to the Word of God! The word of God is truth, let it be your guide. The Word of God says that we are overcomers. It is time you believed God.
There is an illustration that is quite suitable to this. When the American slave trade was abolished in 1865, all slaves were pronounced free. A good many slaves however, especially those that were in more remote locations did not know about the abolition of the slave trade. Therefore many slaves continued serving and slaving under their masters rule. In some cases it took several years before the news of the abolition came to their ears and freedom actually became their experience. Nevertheless, ALL slaves were officially made free in 1865! The fact that some slaves were ignorant of their freedom, did not make the abolition less effectual. Whether or not the slaves actually took their liberty to begin their lives afresh did not change their standing with the United States government. ALL slaves were made free at the point of Abraham Lincoln signing the abolition of the slave trade. As far as the officials in Washington were concerned, ALL slaves were free to do as they pleased from that moment on.
Paul took to himself the responsibility of letting ALL Christians know that they were made free from sin at the point that Jesus resolved the conflict between the slave trader (the flesh), and the slave (you). When Jesus went to the cross He not only paid your debt to God, providing you with forgiveness of sins, and giving you perfect standing with Him through His own right doing, He also put to death your slave master (flesh), thereby providing freedom from the power of sin. Please note that God did not empower you to overcome your slave master. He did not give you strength to over power your flesh. Instead He put you to death, and raised you again to new life in Christ Jesus!

Why death?

Humanity had become so corrupt that God had no choice but to demand the death penalty be executed upon us. The wages of sin is death! We were ALL left without hope...unless...? Unless God became a man and took upon Himself the form of a servant, unless God became flesh! That is exactly what happened. God knew that no one would never be able to succeed, so He did it for us. Jesus was tempted in every point like as we are and was always obedient to God. Having never sinned in His life, the death sentence did not came upon Him. Since He was eternal God He could offer Himself as an eternal sacrifice to the Father. This would give God the legal right to forgive us. Jesus took our death! But God knew that just forgiving us would not take care of the issue of sin in our daily lives. What good would it have done if God would have forgiven us our sins only to leave us as slaves to sin and our flesh? The answer is that He most certainly did not!
Romans 6 is the most descriptive, detailed text in the Bible in regards to Christians being free from sin. It’s a shame that it has been so misunderstood. Lets go through the chapter together and try to actually believe what it says. The reason it has been so misunderstood is simply because it seems hard to believe.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Paul is asking this question with the discussion of chapter 5 in mind. The answer is, yes grace would abound for a Christian if sin continued to abound. Righteousness would continue to be imputed, and sin would still not be imputed! Surely we could all agree, where sin abounds, grace does much more abound!)
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? ( God forbid! This is the strongest negative in the Greek language. However Paul does not say, God forbid. We would lose our salvation if we did. That should never be our motivation. Our motivation for overcoming sin is Christ work and our participation in His death. He doesn’t say, should we continue in sin! He says how shall we, how can we that are dead to sin live any longer therein!? Paul would obviously think it to be absurd for a dead person to continue in sin.)
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ( Here is where Paul begins to reinform the Christians of something that they should have already known. The baptism that Paul is talking about here clearly is not water baptism, he is talking about us being baptized by the Spirit of God into Jesus’ body. Paul says that, so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His death. No Christians were missing during this operation, we were ALL baptized into Jesus. Why would us being baptized into Jesus’ death be significant? He will answer that question in the next verse.)
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (In the same way that Jesus was raised from the dead and now walks in newness of life, we too have been raised from the dead and should walk in newness of life. Walk as though you are alive from the dead, even though your actual resurrection is yet future. We will see more of this in the next verse.)
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Paul is assuming that you knew that we were planted together in the likeness of Jesus’ death! Didn’t you know this? In the same way that Jesus died, you also died. So, if this is fact, then you can be confident that you will also be resurrected in the same manner as Jesus. It is important to note that the tense that Paul uses here is future, ‘we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection’. Our victory over sin is based upon something that God did for us in Jesus and it hinges upon a future hope of being resurrected in a new and glorified body. God wants us to live ‘as though’ this is already a fact. As you believe God’s word, over your own daily experience, you will see actual freedom from the power of sin!)
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Again Paul talks about knowing something. This is something that all Christians should know. Our old man, the flesh, the mortal body, the body of sin, the thing that leads all people down the path of sin, was destroyed when Jesus died! Why? So that we should stop serving sin.)
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (This should be wonderfully good news by now! When Jesus died, you died, and we know that dead men don’t sin! ALL believers are dead and freed from sin.)
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:(Once again, notice the future tense. Paul says that we shall also live with Christ.)
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (This should really be the point of rejoicing for us. Since Jesus died and was raised in a new immortal body, he no longer has death reigning over Him. Now if we were baptized into Jesus’ death, then we also are free from the dominion of death.)
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Here is where many people get things wrong. Somehow they turn this ‘reckon’ into a work that we need to accomplish. The word reckon simply means to count. The instruction from Paul is this, Since Jesus is dead to the dominion of sin and death by His own death and resurrection, in the same way you should now also count (reckon, impute, account) yourself to be dead, resurrected, and in a new body and therefore free from sin and death.)
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Based upon something that is not tangible at all, in fact, based upon something that will yet take place, DO NOT let sin reign in your mortal body anymore! Do not obey the lusts of your mortal body any longer. Notice that he did not say that it is impossible that you could let sin reign, rather he said, let not sin therefore reign. The slave trade has ended, it is over, you can now go free and live in holiness. Your flesh is dead, along with the lusts thereof, now walk as though you are dead to sin and alive unto God.)
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members (members in the Bible are simply eyes, ears, nose, hands, feet, sex organs and so on) as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Live as though you are already dead and resurrected in an immortal body, sin and death being a thing of the past!)
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (This is a strong statement that Paul makes here. He boldly says that sin will not have dominion over a Christian! He is confident that living in faith of Christ’s death and resurrection, our participation with Him, and living in hope of a future resurrection where all this will really come to pass, is enough to keep a believer living above the dominion of sin, even in this life!)
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (Here Paul says that by obeying a form of doctrine, they became free from being the servants to sin. Most people believe that victory over sin lies is in their humility, or self denial, but Paul says that it was by simply believing a doctrine. Freedom from sin is as much a free gift as forgiveness of sins is a free gift. Just like there is nothing you can do to save yourself from the penalty of sin, even so there is nothing you can do to save yourself from the power of sin.
Freedom from sin is not you stopping your sin, freedom from sin is God putting your flesh to death in Christ Jesus. Freedom from sin is not you living a life of holiness, although freedom from sin will result in holiness. Freedom from sin is God taking your mortal body and baptizing it into His Son, crucifying your flesh, and then raising you again in an immortal body, never to die again.)
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Not only did God set you free from sin, He also thereby made you the servant of righteousness. You now have the ability not only to stop sinning, but also to do righteousness!)
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ( The key to victory over sin is eternal life. Life forever with Jesus in an immortal body. That is where victory lies. Sin brought death, Jesus brought life. That is our cure. There is no other. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. If you are in Christ then full provision for victory over sin has been made for you. You have been given eternal life!)

I hope this has been helpful to some of you. I know that there is a lot of confusion over this passage and the subject of freedom from sin. I believe this to be the straight forward gospel approach to it. Any other ‘formula’ would not be gospel. The message of Romans 6 is good news. It means that all those that don’t have the will power to deny themselves, those that never were good at being religious, now have the freedom to walk above sin in a way that religion could never produce in a person. You can walk as someone that is alive from the dead and you don’t have to be super human to do it. The answer is simple, as ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk ye in Him. If you believe this good news, thank God for what He has done for you in Jesus, and then walk in the liberty whereby Christ has made you free!

11 comments:

  1. How do you treat Romans 7 in light of your thoughts here, "I do what I don't want to do? As well, how about Galations where Paul says the flesh wages war against the spirit.

    I have this thought in the back of my head about "sinless perfection". I'm not completely clear but it seems like you're leaning that way. Could you maybe speak to that a little."

    ReplyDelete
  2. Sinless perfection!? No, no, no! Of all doctrines that is one of the most silly! No I am not leaning toward sinless perfection. Even If I were to deceive myself to the point that I thought myself to be sinless, I'm sure I couldn't convince anyone else of that.
    What I am saying is, God has made full provision for us through the death and resurrection of His Son.
    God calls those things which be not as though they are. (Rm 4:17). God says that my flesh, or mortal body, was put to death when Jesus was put to death, and now He expects me to walk in light of what He says in His word. I don't think Romans 6 could be any clearer. Three times it says that we are freed from sin. God says, SIN SHALL NOT have dominion over you. I don't see how that can be argued.

    As for the Romans 7 thing, here is my take on that. All through the book of Romans you see Paul answering questions from his Jewish detractors. The questions that are asked are designed to show that the Jewish religion is superior to this new 'Jesus religion' that Paul was preaching. They obviously felt that Paul was preaching something that was inferior to their current religion. Every time Paul answers their questions though he proves again and again that Jesus simply is better.
    In Romans 3 and 4, Paul explains how a man can be justified with God through faith in Jesus' blood. He taught that where sin abounded, grace does much more abound. He taught that the worst of sinners could come to God and be made right simply by faith in Jesus. No works necessary. He also taught, Now that God has justified you, He will now do 'much more' for you(Romans 5). We will be saved by his life! Much more is in store for Christians. If he saved you in the most wicked of states, how much more do you think He will do now for those that are right with Him.
    The next question that obviously gets asked by Paul's opponents is, 'If grace abounds, why don't we just keep on sinning and let grace do it's thing?'. Then Paul launches into Romans 6 with his argument that, not only does Jesus save you from the penalty of sin, He also saved you from the power of it as well. The Jews held very strongly to righteousness and holiness, and what they were hearing Paul teach sounded to them like Paul was saying that a Christian would be justified and then continue in a sinful state. This clearly would be an inferior religion to them. But Paul is trying to prove to them, that not only does the gospel give you good standing with God, it will also help you to live far holier than the Law could ever do. He is telling them that the gospel is superior to the Law, in that it actually helps you to overcome, it does not just point out your faults and leave you to your own strength.
    After saying that the worst thing that Paul could do is tell his audience, 'I know this sounds good, but in reality it doesn't really work. I still can't overcome sin, I am a slave to it. I always do those things that I don't want to do, and I can never do those things that I know I should do!.' Can you imagine what his critics would say to that! IF Romans 7 is Paul stating that he still cannot overcome sin than the gospel is just as weak as the Law, Paul would have no argument to present. But He doesn't do that. He says, Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:! Paul says that God did do something through Jesus that the Law could not do, because it was weak 'through the flesh'.
    Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (Please note the past tense)
    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh,(Paul says we used to be in the flesh. Again this is past tense.) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;(This is our present state. We are delivered, that being dead wherein we were held. That, 'that' being the flesh.) that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    (This passage on the other hand is speaking past tense. Paul is obviously talking about the way that the Law works. He gives his testimony under the law, thereby sharing all of our stories. When I was under the Law I could not stop looking at pornography, but when I trusted in Jesus, I walked away from it and never looked back. The sins that I could not overcome in my unconverted state, I am now able to walk free from. I am sure you would be able to tell me the same thing.)
    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    (If this is Paul's Christian experience then he has just totally contradicted chapter 6! Paul just told us three times that we are freed from sin! That sin shall not have dominion over the believer! Clearly in this passage Paul is talking about being under the Law.)
    Finally after sharing his life story under the Law Paul cries out, Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Who can deliver me from this body of death?? Then he answers his own question in the next verse!)
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (There is the answer, Jesus Christ our Lord!)So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Here Paul goes back and sums up the whole chapter. Paul perfectly describes the problem of humanity. In peoples minds, they really want to do good, but with their flesh they continue to fail. Even murderers and rapists in prison want to do what is right in their minds, but they continue to serve their flesh instead.This is the problem that Jesus described as well. He said that the unconverted disciples had a willing spirit, but their flesh was weak.)

    Paul makes himself very clear in the next chapter, For what the law could not do,...God did through Jesus. He says, the carnal mind cannot please God, they that are in the flesh cannot please God! But what does he say in verse 9? Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Paul says that Christians are not in the flesh! Paul says that ALL Christians are in the Spirit and not in the flesh, that's if the Spirit of God really even dwells in them.)
    I know that this is not the popular teaching of Romans 6,7, and 8, but I just don't see how else it could be interpreted.
    This does not exclude the battle between the flesh and the spirit that Galatians talks about. The battle will be the same as ever. Only now God tells us to reckon, or count ourselves to be dead indeed to sin and alive unto God. He says that sin shall not have dominion over us, and that we will be able to walk in newness of life!
    This is wonderfully good news to those that are struggling with sin and cannot overcome! Those that have been born again and now hate sin will be very excited that God has made provision and given them victory over sin.

    Let me know what you think.
    God bless you Dave.
    Thanks, Dan.

    ReplyDelete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Good job Dan, I agree wholeheartedly that we need to maintain a spiritual reality so that it works out in our physical reality.

    Romans 6 really fills the gap. I agree also with the fact that our experience of sin (defeat) is not a hermanuetic. Thanks.

    We need to get together sometime to talk more of this through. Imagine if we had a "Council of Aylmer". Like the councils that they had in the old days, Guys who get together to talk about the Lord. Guys who affirm and challenge our own convictions.

    May the Lord Bless you as well Dan

    ReplyDelete
  5. Dan - There are many Scriptures that I would like to discuss in light of this but I would like to see your thoughts regarding the following;

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (make alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    This clearly stands in contradiction of your opening statement "I simply mean this, God does not empower sinful flesh to walk holy, rather he puts sinful flesh to death!!".

    Please don't see my question as contentious. I will say that I believe your writing is missing some points which I would like to discuss further when you have time if you would be inclined.

    As the Lord leads you...

    David
    david.k.benoit@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  6. Greetings David. Thank you for taking the time to read the article and for making a comment.

    There are two plains of reality. There is what the tangible day to day experience, and then there is what God says of us. God wants us to walk by faith. In fact He says that the just shall live by faith.
    Though in all facets of the tangible we are still here in our mortal bodies, God wants us to live above our experience and walk in light of His reality and not our own.
    There is an aspect of victory over sin that is entirely based upon the future. Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    So very simply, we are still in our mortal bodies, but God says that we have a new body. He has given us a down payment, a seal, of His promise, a proof that what He says is true. God wants us to live in hope of our future resurrection, reckoning it to be a thing of the past, yet waiting patiently for it to come to pass. Maybe that sounds confusing, but in reality it isn't. Believe God and you will experience freedom from sin. God does not enhance your strength so that you can overcome sin, He puts the seat of sin (the flesh) to death, thereby freeing us from the power of it.
    So the Spirit that dwelt in Jesus now dwells in us as well and we can fully expect to be raised up from the dead in the same manner as He was. This 'quicken' in 8:11 I believe is very simply to make alive, as in a resurrection. There is coming a day in which God will raise corruptible, mortal man, in incorruptible, immortal bodies. I believe that is what this verse is saying. Even just that verse alone, without the context around it, interprets the word quicken for us. Paul is talking about Jesus resurrection, and says that the same Spirit that raised Jesus will also raise our mortal bodies. Chapter 6 tells that that we have been planted together in the likeness of His death and we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

    Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    I think that this is the core and theme of Romans 8. The cure that Jesus brought to this planet is immortality (1 Cor. 15), and He wants us to patiently wait for the coming of it.
    Based upon that I'm not sure what the problem is. Maybe you could clarify the contradiction.

    Thank you again for taking the time to consider my thoughts, I really appreciate it.
    God bless you, Dan.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hey Dan!

    Thank you for responding and I appreciate the time that you have taken. I do believe that all these things are built on faith and that is the only place where God desires us to walk and I certainly appreciate your focus here.

    Additionally I do understand there is a greater hope that we have for our body, the verse that I brought out is clearly speaking present not future though. Start in verse 1 and read through 14. It is all present tense. For Paul to shift from present to future and back again for one verse (11) makes no sense.

    Please consider Colossians 3:5 - 7 in conjunction with Romans 8:13. In accordance with Romans 8:13 by what are we to mortify our deeds? The Spirit. He has given us the Spirit that we can even take part in death to ourselves. To attempt to do this of our own accord, without the help of God, will not come out right. Consider the very grace of God, which is far too long to discuss here but the very definition of it found in Titus 2:11 - 12 shows that there is a clear working of God teaching us to deny "sin". This is God enabling flesh to walk holy. Know what I mean?

    I truly thank you for the time that you have taken in your response and I will read any response that you have and will consider all things that you have written both before the Lord and in His Word. I certainly see through a glass darkly and by no means have all light on all things. I will pray that the Lord will allow us to meet sometime in the future and that our hearts can be united by His Spirit.

    He will lead us into all truth, which is in Christ Jesus! What a blessed promise!

    May God bless you richly as you seek to abide in the Lord Jesus Christ!

    David

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hello David, It truly is refreshing to get comments that are not contentious. It seems that most anyone that does make a comment wants to argue, but you have commented in such a way that I could hardly even argue with you if I wanted to. Thank you for that, I’m sure I could learn many things from you.
    First of all, you said that Rom. 8:11 could not possibly be future tense. However verse does say that He shall also quicken your mortal body! Shall is clearly something that He will do, not something He has done or is doing. Secondly, verses 9 and 10 make it abundantly clear that Christians are not in the flesh and that the body is dead because of sin. If the body is dead it would be strange for God to make it alive again just so that I can, by the help of the Spirit, put it back to death. Don’t you think? Thirdly there are other verses that corespond exactly with my interpretation of the verse. For instance, 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. This is the most discriptive discussion in the Bible about the resurrection, here the same future tense ‘shall’ is used. We shall have death destroyed yet, we shall be resurrected yet. As for the context not being future, I disagree. In verse 10 he says that the body is dead because of sin and then verse 11 begins with a but. It is as if he is saying, ‘don’t be discouraged, the body is dead because of sin, but if the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, than He shall also raise (quicken) your mortal body from death as well. I think all of the first 13 verses are leading up to his discussion about our waiting to wit the redemption of our bodies. In verses 1-13 he is trying to convince us that we should not live after the flesh, seeing that we are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. He says we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. The flesh is dead, God is going to quicken (resurrect) the mortal body so don’t liveafter it.
    The other thing that I would like to make mention of is that the word mortify does not mean put to death as most people suppose. Morticians mortify dead bodies; they don’t put to death. To mortify your members would be very similar to reckoning yourself to be dead; you don’t put yourself to death by reckoning, you simply ‘count’ God’s word to be true when it says that you already are dead. To mortify, likewise, would be to take your members (members in the Bible are simply, eyes, ears, nose, sex organs etc) that are upon the earth (the ones that God says are dead) and to count (reckon) them to be dead, thereby rendering them to be useless (mortifying) in regards to sin. I realize that the greek word for mortify is also translated put to death, but I believe that the translators did the right thing by using the word mortify here, seeing the passage before said that wewere already dead.
    There are only three places that the New Testament uses the term ‘old man’ and it is always, in every case, in the past tense. Our old man, all that we were before salvation, has been crucified, resurrected, and is seated together with Christ in the heavenly places. Many times these verses are misunderstood so let’s take a look at them.
    1.Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    This verse is so obvious I don’t think anyone would disagree. Our old man is crucified with Jesus. When Jesus was crucified we were crucified at the same time. Then just in case some might think that the old man is something other than the body Paul inserts, ‘that the body of sin might be destroyed’. The old man, the flesh, the mortal body, the body of sin, that thing that leads all men down the road of sin, has been destroyed, so that we should no longer serve sin! Very clear is it not? I love this passage; it is very liberating for me to realize that it is not up to me to put myself to death, but that Jesus took care of that for me.
    2. Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
    Paul tells us not to lie one to another based upon the fact that the old man has been put off with his deeds. He does not tell us to stop lying in order to put off the old man, that would be works sanctification, rather he tells us, seeing that ye have put off the old man, don’t lie to one another. Does that make sense? I think to put it the other way around would be to put the cart before the horse, God does not want us to work towards the cross, but rather to work from the reality of the cross!
    3.Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    This is the one verse where people might say, ‘see, Paul is instructing to put off the old man!’. But if you would take a minute to look at the context with me I think you will see that this verse also is a reference to the fact that the old man has been put off.
    In verse 17-19 Paul is telling them to no longer walk as the gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. In verses 20 Paul tells us that we have not learned Christ in that way. Eph. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:. Paul says that the way that they learned Christ was not to walk in the vanity of their minds. So the question would arise, how then did we learn Christ? This is how, ‘that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man! Paul is simply reminding them that they learned Christ in the way that the old man is already put off, so don’t walk as if you learned Christ differently.
    I realize that this passage might be misunderstood a little easier than the other two passages, but based upon the other two passages being very clear, and the context of this one, I think it can be concluded that the old man is dead. Romans, and Colossians say that the old man is dead, now walk as though that is true. I don’t think Paul would change his mind in Ephesians and tell us to now put to death the old man. Am I being understandable?
    I do agree that the Spirit teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy lusts, and that we do through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, but I do not agree that the mortal body is somehow given strength to do this. Rather I believe that to walk after the Spirit is to believe God’s word, which says that the body is dead, the old man is crucified, it also says that if any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things are passed away, behold all things are become new! It is as we believe this (which is the gospel, not of works but by faith) that we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body. Victory over sin is as much a work of Christ on the cross as is getting saved, it is given to us as a gift to be accepted by faith.
    Obviously we will learn, by the grace of God, to walk holy. However this will not be done by God empowering, or enabling us to ‘gird up our loins’, so to speak. Rather, God says ‘lie not one to another, don’t give in to the lusts of your flesh, seeing that it is dead, the old man is crucified and dead to sin. Psychology, philosophy, and religion, would have us cleaning up the old man. They would say that you just need a little help to become a better person. They act as a body shop or a mechanic, you just need to bring your old man in to the shop and they’ll fix him up. They will have you replace all of your broken parts, fix all of the dents and dings, and one day you’ll be driving in a brand new car! But God doesn’t work that way. He says, ‘bring that old thing in to me, I’ll take care of it’! He doesn’t fix it up and change parts, rather He takes it out back to the crusher and turns it into scrap metal! Then Jesus opens up the door to His limo, and says, ‘from now on you’re riding with me!’. We are now in Christ! We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. God is not in the restoration business, He is in the recreating business! He doesn’t deal with this old material, rather He creates anew!
    The challenge now comes to us to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. All of what God says about us is not yet reality to our senses, so He challenges us to walk by faith and not by sight.
    Thanks again for your response. I too would really enjoy meeting you someday. I feel like I already know you to some degree, seeing we have the same Spirit.
    God bless you, your brother in the Lord, Dan.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Dan,

    I appreciate the gentleness of the response. I do want to clarify that my question was never regarding the fact that "our old man is crucified with Him", just the one statement mentioned above in my first response.

    If you are ever in the Niagara area and feel like coming across the border let me know. You are very welcome for a visit at my house any time.

    May the Lord bless you and your family richly with His presence until then!

    David

    ReplyDelete
  10. Interestingly enough we spent last weekend in Niagara. Do you live just across the border? We actually had a man come from your way to come and preach in Niagara.
    Maybe we should make a weekend out of it sometime.
    Thanks,
    Dan

    ReplyDelete
  11. Yes, we live just across the border very near the man you are referring to. You are certainly welcome to come for a visit for a weekend. We would be blessed by that. We don't actually attend that church though but you would of course be welcomes to visit there while here as it is right up the road from us.

    Thanks again for your responses and I will look forward to meeting you as the Lord allows.

    David

    ReplyDelete